Philosophical Vegan Forum

http://greatideas.people.com/2015/04/08 ... egas-home/

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:

Jebus wrote:As a vegan he would have to address some of the awful things he has said in the past regarding non-human animals. This makes it more unlikely.

I'm not familiar with this "Penn" guy, but from what I've read about him so far in this discussion thread, he seems to be a well-known and/or influential person. What awful things has he said about non-human animals?

He has spoken out against PETA and animal rights. In the Bullshit episode against animal rights, his closing statement was something along the lines of how he would kill every chimp on the planet with his bare hands, if he could save one junkie one the street with AIDS.

Probably the most speciest comment I've ever heard.

holy shit, that episode is so full of broken logic, I dont even... Well hopefully he has another spective now and will have the guts to take back some of that

Jebus wrote:http://greatideas.people.com/2015/04/08 ... egas-home/
He has spoken out against PETA and animal rights. In the Bullshit episode against animal rights, his closing statement was something along the lines of how he would kill every chimp on the planet with his bare hands, if he could save one junkie one the street with AIDS.

Probably the most speciest comment I've ever heard.

What a horrible comment to make. Unfortunately we don't yet have reason to believe that he cares about the ethics of veganism. This comment by him shows that he only consumes a vegan diet for health reasons:

Penn Jillette wrote:I could probably have a steak or a doughnut every couple of weeks, but I just haven’t felt like it. When you’re feeling as bad as I felt, and you go to feeling as good as I feel, the temptation to go back to doing what you were doing when you felt bad is not very great.

I wonder if he'll ever change. With animals out of his diet he might no longer be emotionally driven to defend consuming them, and is perhaps slightly more open-minded to learn about the ethics of veganism.

I remember the line about the chimps and the junkie, but I can't find the quote. Everybody seems to be paraphrasing it differently.

Do you have a link to the video on hand? Maybe I can transcribe it.

That was a pretty shocking claim.

Although, I have to wonder if he'd say he would strangle every kitten in the world to save one chimp. That is, whether he does see an escalating scale of value based on sentience, but thinks a slightly more sentient being is always infinitely more valuable than a slightly less sentient being.

First part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kXUPy-dCx4
Second part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzQgfWYwTzg
Third part (probably in this one if it's at the end): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsUSDMclWQg

From the beginning of the first one, this seems like it's really going to suck.


Is he serious? It's an aesthetic issue, not a moral one, how the chickens are abused? What?
Yeah, that's all that's wrong with it. It just "isn't pretty". It's not like torturing them for your taste buds is wrong, no, don't worry about that.

Oh god, now they have Ted Nugent?

There are many "interesting" things to point out:

- keep calling vegans vegetarians (1st clue they've prolly done zero research)
- manage to make Steve Best and Gary Yoroufsky look like lunatics when in reality they are very sensible people 98% of the time
- euthanasia = killing for own pleasure ???
- Christian fundamentalist and general crazy person Ted Nugent as their expert on morality...

I get that this is supposed to be entertainment, but they should probably have tackled a lighter subject then

brimstoneSalad wrote:I remember the line about the chimps and the junkie, but I can't find the quote. Everybody seems to be paraphrasing it differently.

"Teller and I would personally kill every chimp in the world, with our bare hands, to save one street junkie with AIDS"

I didn't know about this episode (although I don't follow the show at all), but the little faith I had in Jillette has now completely vanished.

The reasoning and framing in this show is beyond imaginable. It's portraying the whole animal rights and liberation movement by extracting some extreme actions and negative statements from PETA (and others). It tries to dismiss certain statements which were, well, I wouldn't call it philosophical gems but where okay for the discussion, with bad reasoning and appeals to pseudo-intellectuals and even a hunter—what the hell? And it's not even bad reasoning, but far from an ethical analysis at all. Using straw man and no true Scotsman fallacies, to name a thing. And if it couldn't get worse, Jillette is making ridiculous ethical claims himself that make absolutely no sense at all.

I wonder if this should be our next open letter. What do you think?

TVA is almost done with the videos for Matt, and it might be good to have a jump on the next one.

^I think that's a good idea. He seems rational sometimes based on that other link. I think he just dismissed the movement because of the extremists. All that would have to be done is to point that out and present good arguments against eating meat for ethical reasons. I think he can be convinced.

I don't think he is familiar with good vegan arguments; I don't remember him addressing any in the show.