Philosophical Vegan Forum

I've made post before about trying the vegan diet and it only lasted 3 weeks. By the end of the third week I was craving
meat like a drug addict. I work in a sort of fast food place for anyone in the NJ/PA area they would know what Wawa is
and why it is especially hard when you're in a deli and serving people meat ball hoagies and so on.

I have never felt so guilty in my life about anything as I have for going back and eating meat. Is there anyone here that
is a recent convert and could tell me how long do the cravings last? Is there any advice from anyone that has a similar
job to me that had to deal with the same temptations?

Have you tried mock meats?

sorry i didnt have any cravings at all. perhaps your work situation but im not sure.

Is your diet properly balanced? Are you meeting your RDA for nutrients?
To check you can try www.cronometer.com input your daily food consumption and see whether you're meeting your RDA.

In case you're lacking any specific nutrient, you can try www.whfoods.com, search for the nutrient, it will provide a list of foods which have the highest amounts of that nutrient.
Generally when you're diet is not balanced, you tend to have food cravings.

Hmm, it must be harder if you work serving food. Can't blame you.

I doubt that nutrients can lead to cravings, all it matters is that you had your fill and ate something that satisfies you. At least that's what I believe.

it seems that there are indeed some addictive compounds in meat (aside from the fat). I didnt have any cravings at all though. I had watched so many documentaries that acted as strong antidotes (Earthlings, Meet your Meat, Fod Inc., etc.) At one point you just won't view meat as food anymore but instead see it as burned flesh of a dead animal. I can imagine this might be harder with your work.
It sounds like you just arent eating enough calories. Try and eat more unhealthy food (relatively), like vegan burgers and fake meats, if you cant get in enough calories from healthy foods only

The important thing is to keep working at it, like quitting smoking.
Cravings take a month, usually, to seriously subside, and the third week is probably the worst, from a lot of anecdotal accounts.

http://whyquit.com/whyquit/z_CraveGrafBW.gif

I think Quitting meat is on a different time-line than smoking, but the basic shape of the curve still applies. Cravings are strong for a few days, then level off, and then they come back strong before fading.
I have no idea why this is.

The duration of particular craving instances, however, I think is about the same. Cravings usually last less than three minutes, and if you remember that (and some people advise keeping a watch), it can help. Although they may feel like they last forever.

It sounds like your job would make it very difficult indeed. Like a door man trying to quit smoking, with people passing him every five minutes going out for a smoke, and being able to smell it drifting from a few feet away and see people smoking all day.
It's hard to imagine.

Is it possible for you to change your job? Or are you upper management or something, and starting over somewhere else would set you back and make it so you can't cover basic living expenses?
The good news at least is that the economy is starting to get to a point where it's recovering, so it's probably more viable now than it would have been last year.

In terms of advice:

1. Distract yourself. If you're having a craving, you have to get your mind off it somehow. Playing a video game can help, if you can take a break. As mentioned, they only last a few minutes. A fake bathroom break could be enough.
2. Bring healthy snacks, and fill up on them. Nuts are good, but vegan junk food if you need to. Take a break to get away from the smell and just eat snacks to distract yourself and keep full. Cravings are worse if you're even a little bit hungry.

I'd mix #1&2
Take a fake bathroom break and play video games while filling up on nuts (and maybe baby carrots dipped in peanut butter or something), if that doesn't work, then more vegan junk food as others mentioned too.

And possibly rub some mint smelling stuff on the bottom of your nose while working to try to mask smells. That could cut off some of the triggers at the source.

Remembering that cravings don't last long, and as soon as you distract yourself they'll go away, can help.

zeello wrote:I doubt that nutrients can lead to cravings, all it matters is that you had your fill and ate something that satisfies you. At least that's what I believe.

Well, If you're hungry it will make things worse.
Being low on certain nutrients can lead to general pica cravings, but they're not really related to the nutrient that's lacking. E.g. being deficient on iron might cause somebody to want to eat ice or chalk (neither of which contain iron). It's not very clear how that works, it's pretty weird. But the body definitely isn't smart enough to crave things it's lacking in, so you're right that cravings aren't a sign of any particular deficiency.

garrethdsouza wrote: Generally when you're diet is not balanced, you tend to have food cravings.

See above, though. It's important to remember that even in cases where deficiency is linked to cravings, they aren't logically linked in the sense that people crave what they're deficient in.
Most cravings aren't related to real nutritional deficiency at all, like cigarettes -- it's not that you're deficient in nicotine, it's that you're addicted to it. Most cravings are caused by psychological or chemical dependency factors.

Meat IS metabolically different than vegetable matter, and it wouldn't be surprising if something like varying levels of acidity of alkalinity in the body could trigger a dependency.
There are also some nutritionally unnecessary (in humans) substances in meat, like Taurine, that might have effects that could build dependency.

If cravings are strong due to having had a very high meat diet, supplementation with Racemic methionine *might* help reduce them. Although it should be a temporary measure, because more methionine than necessary is not good for health (Methionine restriction slows ageing and reduces the prevalence of many age-related diseases).

Taurine is not really necessary, but I'm not familiar with any harmful effects (unlike excess Methionine), so it might be worth trying. That's highly speculative, but I mention it because of its purported effects as a stimulant; it could possibly be addictive. But it would be addictive in a probably non harmful way in moderation. (Please somebody correct me if I'm wrong and there's any reason to believe taurine could be harmful).

Like with alcoholism and addiction to smoking, humans have various genetic and epigenetic differences that create varying levels of dependency and addiction to different substances.
It could very well be that 90% of people have no trouble going vegan and don't understand, but 10% of people have an unknown taurine (or methionine) addiction that's as strong as nicotine withdrawal that we just never figured out, and just need a taurine/methionine gum or something to dampen that effect.

I would LOVE to do a placebo controlled study testing out different unnecessary amino acid supplements to simulate the effects of meat for people struggling with cravings and withdrawal.

Thank you everyone for your contributions. It's been hard but I've been animal product free since my original post.

It seems like it's been weeks but it's only been 3 days.

The last time I tried going vegan I lasted 2 weeks. I set up a decent meal plan:

breakfast: Bowl of steel cut oatmeal with Acai and blueberries. 2 slices of peanut butter on rye toast. ( Whole foods over priced peanut butter that's only ingredient was crushed peanuts and salt.)
Whey protein shake 50g of protein.
Lunch: Kale, spinach, purple lettuce, white and red onion, garlic stuffed olives, baby portabella mushrooms, baby carrots, strawberries, mangos, and mandarins with a light drizzle of pomegranate vinegar salad ( I would mix either chic peas or black beans some times.)
Dinner: Brown rice and quinoa with black beans, steamed broccoli and peas, tomatoes, and a baked purple or red potato.

So I feel I was getting plenty of nutrition it is just my addiction to meat/cheese is pretty bad.

Isolated protein powders/shakes are a bit controversial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0lBWvFQVSE

The big issue is that they don't contain much in the way of micronutrients or minerals, contain no fiber, etc.
It's kind of a way to fill up, but potentially miss out on nutrition in the process. You feel full at first, but you haven't really nourished yourself.

I recommend eating large quantities of quality whole foods, like beans, whole grains, and veggies, rather than smaller quantities of isolated processed foods like protein powders. You get the same protein, but you also get more fiber and nutrients.


Also, it seems like the only fat you were getting was from peanut butter. I think you dropped your dietary fat content much too fast. Peanut butter isn't good as a sole source of fat.

Fat itself is addictive. Switch over to healthier vegan fats, like canola oil, and then wean yourself off. And, also, lots of nuts.
That will help you feel more full.

Peanut butter is good because it's cheap, but if you're paying too much for it, it completely loses that advantage.
You can find 'natural' style peanut butter at the average store (like Walmart, or any grocery chain) usually much cheaper. Just make sure it doesn't have palm oil in it, It should be comparable in price to "regular" unhealthy peanut butter.

Oats and berries are good. The peanut butter on toast sounds good in theory (just make sure the peanut butter is reasonably priced)

Lunch sounds pretty good. How many kilograms of this are you eating? When eating greens as a staple, you have to eat huge amounts of it. The vegan diet usually contains larger portion sizes than that which omnivores are accustomed to eating.
And salad is "fluffy", which means you need to eat even more, since there's air between the leaves.

Try putting your greens in a tortilla and rolling it up really tight. You'll get a better sense of how much food is actually there. Greens are very deceptive unless they are cooked. Salads look bigger than they are.
Green smoothies are also a good option.

Dinner: Broccoli, peas, and purple potato are great. Switch the lighter grains out for black rice if you can.
Brown rice is low in protein. Quinoa is healthy, but it's also expensive and probably not worth the cost (also, if you eat Quinoa, try for Canadian grown if you can, which is more sustainable -- the competition for South American Quinoa is too high and has driven the price of the grain through the roof).

Black beans an chick peas are good, BUT you have to eat quite a few of them. For many this promotes gas when your digestive system isn't used to it. You pretty much have to increase bean consumption slowly over time, and make sure they are very well cooked.

I've come to believe tempeh may be the best source of bean protein for new vegans, because it has been de-gassed by the culturing.
You can easily eat a kilogram of tempeh or more daily without problems.
The trouble with tempeh is that you have to make it yourself, otherwise it's too expensive. If you can find it locally for a reasonable price, try buying some and let me know if you think it's OK.

You can marinate it, then bake, grill, or lightly sauté it (ideally a non-stick pan and limited oil).

You need some bread to go with that lunch. Turn that salad into a sandwich. I prefer bagels since they're chewier and heartier than other breads.