Veganism as a religion

[Dan388]

First and foremost: I am not oposed people being vegan. In fact, I do belive it has some positive benefits, however I can see strong resembelence between veganism and religious belifs not grounded in facts, and will therefore probably not folow it.

Most people folow vegan diet for 2 reasons. Health reason and/or moral reason. I will therefore structure this into two parts, one being folowing veganism for health benefits, and the second part for moral reasons, and will highlight how I think being vegan 100% of the time for both of this reasons is more grounded in belif, than in reality.

Vaganism for health: One of most common "weapons" religion uses is fear. If you do not belive in our god, you will suffer for eternity. You will be tortured. Burned alive.
If you continue to eat meat you will have a hearth attack, cancer, diabetes. You will be obese. Well I say ... no. As long as I eat and live healthy, that is not gonna happen, vegan or not.

I folow plant based diet, with most of my food consisting of carbohidrates, vegetables and fruit. I do however still consume, and will continue to consume meat and animal products on ocasion, for all benefits it provides. This to me represents diet that is rational, sustainable and healthy. I have not been to doctors for more than 15 years (except for mandatory checkups), and am feeling fit and healthy.
This is not strange, as studies show us, that plant based diet is the most healthy and also natural. However this is not vegan diet. Vegan diet means not having meat or animal products at all. But why? Human is afterall omnivore, despite some vegans telling otherwise, and is getting some important nutrients and minerals out of meat. Some of this are Iron, vitamin B12 and protein. A lot of ex-vegans I hear from, are showing signs of being deficient in one or more of these nutrients, and this was the reason they stoped being 100% vegan. Indeed it would seem, that most of vegans have to take supplements, like B12 supplement or iron fortified foods, to stay healthy and keep long term veganism. Also, I have noticed most of doctors and reaserchers who recomend 100% veganism are biased, and are often comparing the most healthy vegan options to the least healthy "omnivore" options (such as high fat and McDonalds diets), and ofcourse the results will show, that vegan diet is more healthy. I could just as easily compare my diet (which I consider healthy) to a diet of a vegan chain smoker, who eats only potato chips and drinks beer, and then come to the conclusion that non-vegan diet is better. Surprise. There are unhealthy vegans. And another surprise. There are healthy non-vegans.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7KeRwdIH04) Here is a video of a lecture of one of biggest vegan doctors and nutrient specialist Dr. Michael Greger. I highly recomend it, especially if you are vegan, since he talks about how to be a healthy vegan. How is he biased? Afterall most of his foundings are based on scientific reaserch. Well it's the way he presents those results that is important. Nowhere in his video does he mention for example, why eating flax seeds would not be good for a non-vegan. Is it good for vegans only? Nor does he say why eating meat ocasionaly would be worse than taking supplements. Eating small ammounts of meat afterall, does not impact health in a negative way, while it still gives you enough of B12 and iron (he did mention briefly that those eating meat on ocasion were the healthiest group, but he never explores that further). Oh yea. You know why? Because of the Vegan belief. Because of reasons other than health.
I can go on and on with this, but post is too long as it is, so I'll be brief. In conclusion, you can be healthy if you are a vegan. However you don't have to be vegan, to be healthy.

Moral side of veganism: Another weapon religion often uses is guilt. You are a bad and immoral person if you do not follow our belief. You are wrong and we are right. You are a sinner, and moraly inferior. If you do not folow our religion, you do not deserve to even live.

Eating animals is wrong. Can't you see how they torture and misstreat them? You are a murderor for eating flesh of an animal. You are meat eater. Meat is murder. It's immoral. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw - enough said. (needless to say being a vegan is far from easy)

I do feel for the animals, and am against factory farming and misstreatment. But that goes to an extent. And imo this has a lot less to do with consuming meat, and more to do with corporativism and modern capitalism. Factory farming has been developed in relatively modern times, while humans have been eating meat throughout most of human hystory, which spans for milions of years.
It's similar question as watter consumption. I take a shower every day, especially in hot summer time. And it's perfectly drinkable watter. People living in large parts of Africa and some parts of Asia and even South America, do not have enough watter to even survive. Should I take less showers and stink in my workplace because of this? How will this help anyone? While it's true that if all people will start consuming less watter, it will help in a long term, but as long as I'm alone in this, it's more of a symbolic gesture out of protest than anything else. Also being aware of the situation, does not make me think about it everytime I take a shower.
Now about someone being moral or immoral person for eating meat. I am voluntary firefighter. Am I immoral if, after I dragged an injured man out of his burning car, I went to eat a steak with vegetables? I'm telling you, when your life is on the line, you would not think about morality of your meal. What if tomorow I will have a fatal accident? And about watter consuption ... summer time is here, and season of fires with it.
On the flip side of things .... Hitler was a vegetarian. Even more. Most (if not all) of the people who died in concentration camps were not vegans. So hurray for Hitler? I don't think so.
There's more. I do not belive in objective morality. I'm atheist afterall. It's impossible to judge one's moral stance on the fact that he/she is or isn't consuming meat. Does eating less meat than my neighbour make me more moral person? If so then even more moral is vegetarian. And even more a vegan. And even more than a vegan, is moral he who drives electric car, because afterall, this polutes our planet. Did you know that everytime you buy gassoline, you are giving money to support the war in middle east ? Do I think about a human ISIS beheaded everytime I put few liters of fuel in my car? do anyone? Buying gassoline is murder. Taking a shower is murder. So if there are so many "levels" of morality, why put veganism as an arbitrary line of judgement, if someone is moral or immoral? I know all religions do that. And veganism is a religion.

A bonus - But it's so easy!: When I was visited by Jehowah's witness, the well dressed man, next to well dressed woman, said to me: "but why not? It's easy. All you need is faith."

Trust me. If being vegan was easy, I would be long time ago. It's not. Most vegans I know of are one of the folowing: proffesional athletes, fitness / health gurus, proffesional vegans (earning money on youtube with pro vegan videos, and writing pro vegan books) - hmm just like a missionary? etc. In other words, being vegan is who they are. Most of their lives revolve around food and diet. Atleast long term vegans. Short term vegans ... well that's why they're short term. Being vegan would severely limit my social circle, make my food more expensive and made me crave non-vegan stuff. Because of this, I know my diet would not be sustainable. Why go to all the extra trouble, risking my health, consulting to doctors, denying myself enjoyment, and spending extra money on food, if ultimately I would manage to hold out 1-2 years? And for what? So that perhaps in 100 years time my great grandson (or daughter), will live in a world where noone eats meat? I eat low ammount of meat as it is, for health reasons, and also for the animals. My diet is working for me. A key to diet working is sustainability. A 100% vegan diet is not sustainable. I can not even buy icecream to a girl I'm dating, when we pass by icecream stall, if I'm vegan. Can't take her to cofee. Can't go to lunch with my boss, and build relations with him in hopes of promotion or getting a job. Same problems someone would get if they ... join a religious cult?

I'm not seeing myself becoming vegan anytime soon. Sorry for the long post. I could go on and on, presenting videos of most influential vegans on how they hate humans etc. But it's enough for now. I don't think many people will read through it as it is. I belive my point is valid, but you are wellcome to respond or ask me stuff. Also, my native language is not English, so there ARE errors and typos here. It's long post for non-english speaker afterall, and therefore this should not be surprising.

[EquALLity]

Vaganism for health: One of most common "weapons" religion uses is fear. If you do not belive in our god, you will suffer for eternity. You will be tortured. Burned alive.
If you continue to eat meat you will have a hearth attack, cancer, diabetes. You will be obese. Well I say ... no. As long as I eat and live healthy, that is not gonna happen, vegan or not.

The difference is that hell doesn't actually exist, and that the "main" whole animal products are actually unhealthy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ORpiAc1f_A
So do you think belief in man-made climate change is a religion when we use it to try to persuade people not to screw up the environment because of the harm that would cause to the planet?

This is not strange, as studies show us, that plant based diet is the most healthy and also natural.

It doesn't matter what is "natural". https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

I think it's also noteworthy that there isn't a single plant based diet, and that you can be plant based but unhealthy.

This to me represents diet that is rational, sustainable and healthy.

It's not rational because it's both unsustainable and often quite pretty damn unhealthy.

Human is afterall omnivore, despite some vegans telling otherwise, and is getting some important nutrients and minerals out of meat.

Yeah, we're omnivores. What's your point? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

Can you give me one nutrient we get from meat that we cannot get from other sources that are just as healthy/healthier?

Some of this are Iron, vitamin B12 and protein.

Plenty of vegetables have iron and protein.

B12 can be in fortified vegan foods, like soymilk, or you can take supplements. Since farm animals are fed B12 supplements also, because B12 comes from bacteria, not animals, what is the difference between eating fortified animals and fortified vegan foods?

A lot of ex-vegans I hear from, are showing signs of being deficient in one or more of these nutrients, and this was the reason they stoped being 100% vegan.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

So they messed it up. It doesn't matter. You can be a healthy vegan and an unhealthy vegan. Nobody here is denying that.

Indeed it would seem, that most of vegans have to take supplements, like B12 supplement or iron fortified foods, to stay healthy and keep long term veganism.

You take a B12 supplement too every time you eat an animal that was fed a supplement. What's wrong with supplements?

Also, I have noticed most of doctors and reaserchers who recomend 100% veganism are biased, and are often comparing the most healthy vegan options to the least healthy "omnivore" options (such as high fat and McDonalds diets), and ofcourse the results will show, that vegan diet is more healthy. I could just as easily compare my diet (which I consider healthy) to a diet of a vegan chain smoker, who eats only potato chips and drinks beer, and then come to the conclusion that non-vegan diet is better. Surprise. There are unhealthy vegans. And another surprise. There are healthy non-vegans.

Even if they are biased, what's your point? There are biased vegans and biased non-vegans.

That doesn't invalidate the entire vegan cause.

Nor does he say why eating meat ocasionaly would be worse than taking supplements.

I didn't watch it, but he's already addressed why meat is bad (compared to alternatives) for you on his website.

The reason it would be worse is because supplements often (option A) provide you with vital nutrients.
Meat (option B), on the other hand, has some important nutrients, yes, but it also has a lot of unhealthy stuff.

Option A is only good (generally), while option B has the same good, but also bad. Therefore option A is better.

About the flax seed stuff, again, I didn't watch it. But what did he say, exactly, about it?

(he did mention briefly that those eating meat on ocasion were the healthiest group, but he never explores that further).

What was he going to do, focus on it for thirty minutes? Mentioning it is evidence of his rationality and lack of dogmatism.

Oh yea. You know why? Because of the Vegan belief. Because of reasons other than health.

That's a pretty big assumption.

I can go on and on with this, but post is too long as it is, so I'll be brief. In conclusion, you can be healthy if you are a vegan. However you don't have to be vegan, to be healthy.

Ok, but the healthiest you can be as a vegan is healthier than the healthiest you can be as someone drinking whole milk or eating steak, because those things aren't as healthy as the healthiest vegan foods.

Moral side of veganism: Another weapon religion often uses is guilt. You are a bad and immoral person if you do not follow our belief. You are wrong and we are right. You are a sinner, and moraly inferior. If you do not folow our religion, you do not deserve to even live.

Eating animals is wrong. Can't you see how they torture and misstreat them? You are a murderor for eating flesh of an animal. You are meat eater. Meat is murder. It's immoral. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw - enough said. (needless to say being a vegan is far from easy)

You seem to be applying what some vegans think to all of veganism.

Enough said, really? I can find examples of vegans who disagree with that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ytgRM ... e=youtu.be

But yes, of course it is wrong to torture others for personal pleasure, and even worse when you can get fairly equal pleasure without harming them.

I do feel for the animals, and am against factory farming and misstreatment. But that goes to an extent. And imo this has a lot less to do with consuming meat, and more to do with corporativism and modern capitalism. Factory farming has been developed in relatively modern times, while humans have been eating meat throughout most of human hystory, which spans for milions of years.

It has to do with purchasing meat from those farms because that is funding the practices.

So what if we've been doing it for thousands of years? So we should do it now, because we did it then?

It's similar question as watter consumption. I take a shower every day, especially in hot summer time. And it's perfectly drinkable watter. People living in large parts of Africa and some parts of Asia and even South America, do not have enough watter to even survive. Should I take less showers and stink in my workplace because of this? How will this help anyone? While it's true that if all people will start consuming less watter, it will help in a long term, but as long as I'm alone in this, it's more of a symbolic gesture out of protest than anything else. Also being aware of the situation, does not make me think about it everytime I take a shower.

BrimstoneSalad addressed that here.

Now about someone being moral or immoral person for eating meat. I am voluntary firefighter. Am I immoral if, after I dragged an injured man out of his burning car, I went to eat a steak with vegetables? I'm telling you, when your life is on the line, you would not think about morality of your meal. What if tomorow I will have a fatal accident? And about watter consuption ... summer time is here, and season of fires with it.

Um, good on you for being a volunteer firefighter, but I'm not sure what your point here is.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to eat meat, or wanting to do anything, because that just involves thoughts. There's nothing wrong with fantasizing about murder. Who is being harmed?

But it is wrong to actually murder for example, or to actually do bad things you fantasize about.

There's more. I do not belive in objective morality. I'm atheist afterall.

Atheism =/= moral nihilism. There are logical and secular moral systems. https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... ?f=7&t=785

Why do you reject them in favor of nihilism, a system where all things are equal? By that logic, someone who tosses gays off mountains "because the Koran tells me so" is just as ethical as your average citizen. And why even have laws based on what is right or wrong, if there is no right or wrong? Should we not have laws against rape and murder?

It's impossible to judge one's moral stance on the fact that he/she is or isn't consuming meat.

I agree that that is not the only factor, but it still is one.

Does eating less meat than my neighbour make me more moral person? If so then even more moral is vegetarian. And even more a vegan. And even more than a vegan, is moral he who drives electric car, because afterall, this polutes our planet. Did you know that everytime you buy gassoline, you are giving money to support the war in middle east ? Do I think about a human ISIS beheaded everytime I put few liters of fuel in my car? do anyone? Buying gassoline is murder. Taking a shower is murder. So if there are so many "levels" of morality, why put veganism as an arbitrary line of judgement, if someone is moral or immoral? I know all religions do that. And veganism is a religion.

Veganism isn't a religion because it is based on reason and evidence.

I'm not saying veganism is the moral baseline, but, see a shortened comment on this video about that:

"Yes, freeganism or suicide (suicide, not so much, because of activism, and I think the freegan thing is also questionable, but that's not really relevant) are the best options, but going vegan, to me, is like getting a hail dent on your car. Yeah, there's damage, but maintaining a typical Western diet is like completely demolishing a car in a head on collision. So I think comparing a transition from omnivore to vegan vs vegan to freegan isn't really appropriate or close to being on the same scale - and that's just by working on the animal death toll by humans alone and not counting all the suffering. Again, watch Emily's latest video to better grasp my point."

Also: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Trust me. If being vegan was easy, I would be long time ago. It's not. Most vegans I know of are one of the folowing: proffesional athletes, fitness / health gurus, proffesional vegans (earning money on youtube with pro vegan videos, and writing pro vegan books) - hmm just like a missionary?

Oh come on. Activists are evidence of religion? -_-

I guess JaclynGlenn is an atheist missionary?

And science is also a religion then, because of Richard Dawkins.

Being vegan would severely limit my social circle, make my food more expensive and made me crave non-vegan stuff.

How would it limit your social circle?

It's as expensive as you make it. It's easy to eat cheaply as a vegan. Veggies and grains aren't as pricey as meat, so then you can have extra money to buy special vegan things to help deal with cravings.

Cravings aren't gong to kill ya, and there are vegan alternatives that taste pretty similar to foods you might crave. And you don't even need the alternatives, you only need vegan food that tastes just as good.

Why go to all the extra trouble, risking my health, consulting to doctors, denying myself enjoyment, and spending extra money on food, if ultimately I would manage to hold out 1-2 years?

You would be helping your health as long as you do it properly, which is easy. If you need help with how to plan a good vegan diet, you should start a topic on that.

Why do you think you would need to stop after 1-2 years?

So that perhaps in 100 years time my great grandson (or daughter), will live in a world where noone eats meat?

So that less animals would be abused today.

A 100% vegan diet is not sustainable. I can not even buy icecream to a girl I'm dating, when we pass by icecream stall, if I'm vegan. Can't take her to cofee. Can't go to lunch with my boss, and build relations with him in hopes of promotion or getting a job. Same problems someone would get if they ... join a religious cult?

Then just buy something else. Or get vegan icecream.

Coffee- Soymilk and soy creamers.

Job- Just go out to a place where you know they have vegan options, or one where they are willing to prepare you something vegan.

And again, it's not a religious cult.

[Jebus]

Hi Dan,
Your post is well structured. Thank you for that as this makes it easier to reply. The shortcomings of your post relate to the spelling, grammar, and logical reasoning. This is somewhat excusable if you are a kid, but since I don’t know your age I will respond assuming you are an adult.
You like to draw parallels with religion. I’m sure you chose this debating strategy knowing the audience of your posts would be mostly atheist. The problem is that you overlook the fact that atheists and vegans base their claims mainly on empirical evidence. As you will soon notice these parallels will be demonstrated idiotic by me and my fellow vegan atheist forumites.

I have not been to doctors for more than 15 years (except for mandatory checkups), and am feeling fit and healthy

How does this support your claim? Don’t you think there are smokers who have not had to see a doctor in 15 years? What you need to understand is that no diet guarantees health or ill health. However, a healthful diet increases someone’s chance of being healthy. The American dietary Association is one of many well respected health agencies who have drawn this conclusion:
''[Properly planned vegan diets] are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases….are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.''
— American Dietetic Association Volume 109, Issue 7, Pages 1266-1282 (July 2009)

Human is afterall omnivore, despite some vegans telling otherwise

One cannot categorize mammals into either herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore. Mammals fall along a spectrum with everything between the extreme carnivore and the extreme herbivore. If you look at human anatomy you will find that humans are much more similar to the extreme herbivore than the extreme carnivore. Like most mammals with herbivorous anatomy, humans have at times been forced to survive on an omnivorous diet. However, as you obviously have Internet/pc access I doubt you are one of these humans.

A lot of ex-vegans I hear from, are showing signs of being deficient in one or more of these nutrients, and this was the reason they stoped being 100% vegan

This may or may not be true as many vegans are either too lazy or too stupid to adapt to a healthful vegan diet. However, a well-planned vegan diet with B12 supplements will not bring any nutrient deficiency. By curiosity, how often do you “hear from” ex-vegans?

Also, I have noticed most of doctors and reaserchers who recomend 100% veganism are biased, and are often comparing the most healthy vegan options to the least healthy "omnivore" options (such as high fat and McDonalds diets), and ofcourse the results will show, that vegan diet is more healthy.

OK, would you care to prove any examples of this claim? If indeed these people are researchers it shouldn’t be too hard for you to find.

Here is a video of a lecture of one of biggest vegan doctors and nutrient specialist Dr. Michael Greger. I highly recomend it, especially if you are vegan, since he talks about how to be a healthy vegan. How is he biased? Afterall most of his foundings are based on scientific reaserch. Well it's the way he presents those results that is important. Nowhere in his video does he mention for example, why eating flax seeds would not be good for a non-vegan.

I will try to find time to view this video later. However, before I do please state at least one thing he says that you believe to be untrue, and why you believe it to be untrue. Mentioning unspecific things you think he should have said to be more unbiased does not hold up in an intellectual discussion.

I can go on and on with this.

I’m sure you can, but if you choose to do so please mention something with substance.

As weak as your arguments were against the health aspects of veganism, things turn to the worse when you shift to the moral aspects. Please explain how this intro statement (“enough said” about what?) makes any sense at all:

Eating animals is wrong. Can't you see how they torture and misstreat them? You are a murderor for eating flesh of an animal. You are meat eater. Meat is murder. It's immoral. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw - enough said. (needless to say being a vegan is far from easy)

humans have been eating meat throughout most of human hystory, which spans for milions of years.

Lol, even the creationist timeline is more accurate than yours. Do you also believe humans lived alongside dinosaurs?

It's similar question as watter consumption. I take a shower every day, especially in hot summer time. And it's perfectly drinkable watter. People living in large parts of Africa and some parts of Asia and even South America, do not have enough watter to even survive. Should I take less showers and stink in my workplace because of this? How will this help anyone?.

OMG you are stupid!!! Water shortage is usually a local problem. Yes, if you are on a deserted island with 10 liters of water left between ten islanders it would indeed be immoral to take a shower. If you eat a dead animal, you increase the demand for more dead animals as the dead animal you ate will have to be replaced.

I am voluntary firefighter.

Seriously!!! You are over 18???

Am I immoral if, after I dragged an injured man out of his burning car, I went to eat a steak with vegetables?.

Yes you are immoral. Moral people are consistently moral. Not moral some of the time and immoral at other times.

What if tomorow I will have a fatal accident? And about watter consuption ... summer time is here, and season of fires with it.

Did you even read this before you posted it. It makes no sense whatsoever and makes you look like a complete moron.

Hitler was a vegetarian

It seems he may have been vegetarian during a very short period of his life. What does that have to do with anything?

Does eating less meat than my neighbour make me more moral person?

Yes, all other factors being equal

is moral he who drives electric car, because afterall, this polutes our planet.

In questions of morality you need to break it down to each moral act. For example, is it more moral to choose to buy an electric car than a gasoline driven car? Yes. Is it more moral to ride a bicycle to work than an electric car? Yes.

Did you know that everytime you buy gassoline, you are giving money to support the war in middle east ? .

No, I didn’t know that. Am I supporting the side who started the war or the other side?

Do I think about a human ISIS beheaded everytime I put few liters of fuel in my car? do anyone? Buying gassoline is murder.

.
OK, please explain the causation between me purchasing petrol and someone being beheaded by ISIS. Than explain how this supports your argument that veganism is not a superior moral choice.

Taking a shower is murder. So if there are so many "levels" of morality, why put veganism as an arbitrary line of judgement, if someone is moral or immoral?

You should look into consequentialism. It is easy to understand and will clarify most of your confusion.

veganism is a religion.

.
Really? What supernatural deity does a vegan believe in?

My diet is working for me

How do you know that? How do you know you wouldn’t feel even better on an other type of diet?

Sorry for the long post

You don’t have to apologize for the long post. Long posts are often appreciated. However, you should apologize for wasting people’s time by writing down things that are completely irrational.

my native language is not English

It’s not mine either. This might be an excuse for your poor grammar, but you showed zero respect by not even bothering to use the spell checker.

[Dan388]

One cannot categorize mammals into either herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore. Mammals fall along a spectrum with everything between the extreme carnivore and the extreme herbivore. If you look at human anatomy you will find that humans are much more similar to the extreme herbivore than the extreme carnivore. Like most mammals with herbivorous anatomy, humans have at times been forced to survive on an omnivorous diet. However, as you obviously have Internet/pc access I doubt you are one of these humans.

It is true that I am not, however my anathomy is not much diferent from those that lived back then. This is mainly a response to vegans who claim that human being can not digest meat. And yes. Those do exist.

By curiosity, how often do you “hear from” ex-vegans?

I admit not many times, but when I do hear from them, the top reason they give, that they stoped being vegan is them having health problems. And ofc, you can easily put me into "too lazy" category if you wish. I asure you, I don't mind. However if I am indeed too lazy to folow a vegan diet, then I will simply not folow it. Sounds like a logical conclusion.

OK, would you care to prove any examples of this claim? If indeed these people are researchers it shouldn’t be too hard for you to find.

it's the way he presents those results that is important. Nowhere in his video does he mention for example, why eating flax seeds would not be good for a non-vegan.

I will try to find time to view this video later. However, before I do please state at least one thing he says that you believe to be untrue, and why you believe it to be untrue. Mentioning unspecific things you think he should have said to be more unbiased does not hold up in an intellectual discussion.

it's the way he presents those results that is important. If I mention only pros and withhold the cons of something, then I am giving a biased opinion, even if all the good things are based on scientific facts. As a smart man, I was sure you would understood that when I was typing the comment. But since I must I will give you more direct reference:
- He states most vegans lack important nutrients and minerals that are in nature only found in meat. Those include Omega 3, B12 and Iron amongst others. This is statement base upon scientific reaserch.
- He then says people should be vegan and eat supplenets as a solution. Why does he not mention eating meat once a week to be a possible solution aswell? Why does he presents veganism as only solution? Specialy in light of the fact, that he mentions that group of people who ate meat on ocasion was the most healthy group overall?
-He states that those who eat meat are not as healthy as vegans, because they not to eat enough vegetables. Why is there not a solution for them to then simply take supplements, just like vegans do? Or why is not a solution for them to simply eat more fruit and vegetables and eat less, but some meat? Why is the only possible solution presented as going 100% vegan?

As weak as your arguments were against the health aspects of veganism, things turn to the worse when you shift to the moral aspects. Please explain how this intro statement (“enough said” about what?) makes any sense at all:

I see that there's another video you have missed. Ah well, you do seem to be like a "moral" person who thinks all non-vegans should die. It fits your personality. You don't see any parallels with a religious zealots who think those that don't folow their ideology should die? I give people too much credit sometimes.

Lol, even the creationist timeline is more accurate than yours. Do you also believe humans lived alongside dinosaurs?

Realy now. Dinosaurs? "Australopithecus afarensis is one of the longest-lived and best-known early human species—paleoanthropologists have uncovered remains from more than 300 individuals! Found between 3.85 and 2.95 million years ago in Eastern Africa" (http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/hum ... -afarensis). You should be careful, who you call stupid before you check your facts. It may aswell backfire. I don't know how education is in your country, but origin of humans is a fascinating thing. You should watch some documentaries atleast.

Water shortage is usually a local problem. Yes, if you are on a deserted island with 10 liters of water left between ten islanders it would indeed be immoral to take a shower. If you eat a dead animal, you increase the demand for more dead animals as the dead animal you ate will have to be replaced.

Usually. But watter polution is a global problem as more and more countries arround the world are facing lack of drinkable watter. Exporting watter to other countries is a thing you know. Also note that all watter on the planet sooner or latter mixes. So everytime you wash shampoo with drinkable watter the percentage of it goes down, and global watter prices go up. By a small margin ofcourse. This means less people living in countries drained of clean watter can afford it. So they drink poluted watter from their river which causes illness and death. This is why countries worldwide have joined programs to save the ammount of clean watter a person consumes. Instead of washing our car with drinkable watter, we are encouraged to do it with watter from local rainfall, and other non-drinkable (dirty) watter.
You also do not seem to understand the analogy. Whenever I am "throwing away and poluting" global watter supply, I do not think about it. I do not think about sick childeren. I think about how nice a shower is and what I am going to wear afterwards. The same is with eating a steak or fried shrimp on sunday. I am removed (like most people) from the problem, and does not impact me directly. Therefore, even tho I am aware of factory farming I tend not to think about it. Also eating vegetarian (or vegan) 6 days a week, I do far better and I ensure you am more healthier than people who eat burgers every day. I am however not a 100% vegan and will probably not be for mentioned reasons. I agree that eating mostly plant based diet is healthy. But to be so fanatical about it, that you would not eat something that has a trace of milk or animal product is religious. Example: Would you eat a fruit energy bar before you go jogging? I would. And I would even if it has chocholate topping. Why? because I simply like it more than 100% vegan option and on top of that, it's cheaper.

Seriously!!! You are over 18???
It makes no sense whatsoever and makes you look like a complete moron.

sigh. I know there are smart vegans out there. Look at the person who responded to me above. He made a well manared response that actualy has a lot of merit to it, and makes me even see some things I missed before, and even reconsider some. Your ad hominem attacks are whole other matter entierly. I try to ignore it to most of my abilities, as I know it usualy shows me that person who uses such tactics has low self esteem and is most likely loosing an argument, which seems to be the case here.

Hitler was a vegetarian

It seems he may have been vegetarian during a very short period of his life. What does that have to do with anything?

Does eating less meat than my neighbour make me more moral person?

Yes, all other factors being equal

is moral he who drives electric car, because afterall, this polutes our planet.

In questions of morality you need to break it down to each moral act. For example, is it more moral to choose to buy an electric car than a gasoline driven car? Yes. Is it more moral to ride a bicycle to work than an electric car? Yes.

So. Where in your opinion would you say that someone is moral, and other is immoral? Is veganism the measurement? Is it the "line" between moral and immoral conduct? The point is, I can be a moral person overall, without being vegan, or realy nasty and immoral despite being a vegan. Even if I skip my steak on sundays, there will still be another level of morality above this. So why not say those who drive cars to work are immoral? Why not set the bar even higher? Or why not lower? Certain things are considered immoral by the majority of people (murder, rape, theft, genocide etc.) Guess what? Eating meat is not amongst them. Not yet atleast. Bottom line is this. You, right now, are killing animals and plants and even people, indirectly with your actions just by living a normal life. Everytime you buy fuel for your car, you support oil drilling companies, responsible for poluting the enviorment and killing sea life. You support them wanting to drill oil in middle east, therefore negatively effecting stability of the region. Everytime you buy any product, be it computer, car, furniture etc. you are supporting big corporations and are causing more money to flow towards already rich minority, and away from poorer and less privileged majority, therefore causing more poverty, famine, disease, criminal activities and yes, terrorist activities. Yes. Me consuming meat on weekends does make me responsible for a tiny percentage of more animals that are being killed. But that does not make much diference in grand scheme of things. Specially, If I generaly take effort to help people, and maybe even save life of some people. If you or someone you love will be in emergency situation, be it car accident or something else, you would be happy if a doctor or a surgeon would save your life or the life of someone you care for, even tho he eats fat red stake for a diner. Even tho, in grand scheme of things, he's not doing humanity a service. And indeed. You would not call a genocidal dictator to be moral, even tho he saved countless of animal's lives and reduced global warming by killing a milion or two people, most of them meat eaters.

Really? What supernatural deity does a vegan believe in?

You ofcourse do know, that deity is not required for it to be a religion. Ofcourse it all depends on how broad one defines religion. But that is beside the point anyway, as my OP was about COMPARISON between vegan beliefs (or dogmas) and religion or religious beliefs. Title is: "Veganism AS A RELIGION." afterall. Now, if you do not have anything else besides ad hominem attacks to offer me, please do not bother and make room for other people, like the one above you, to respond.

[brimstoneSalad]

However if I am indeed too lazy to folow a vegan diet, then I will simply not folow it. Sounds like a logical conclusion.

One is present tense, one is future. People can change, from being lazy to being inspired and motivated; that is a matter of human character development. People who are "worthless" and amoral can become decent human beings... and decent human beings can become "worthless" and amoral. It's the way of the world; people change. Sometimes for better, and sometimes for worse.

Lazy, however, is not an excuse for immoral behavior. It's not a justification.

A man who is too lazy to work out to get in shape and learn to socialize, visit a few social gatherings, meet a girl, take her out a few times, and develop a relationship to have sex, may simply decide to roofie and rape a girl to get off, because it's much easier.

Do you see how this is not an excuse or justification? It may be a reason, but a reason is not a justification. You can do all sorts of terrible things for terrible reasons. Laziness is the second most terrible reason there is.

Ah well, you do seem to be like a "moral" person who thinks all non-vegans should die.

I don't think anybody on this forum believes that all non-vegans should die. The vast majority of us wouldn't even agree that all rapists and murderers should die.

Supporting [most] animal agriculture, given the suffering it causes (for humans and non-humans) is a bad thing. Raping and murdering, also bad things. Buying diamonds: also a bad thing. I could list many things that are bad.

Some bad things are very hard to avoid (like animal products in tires, or traces in food), some bad things are very easy to avoid (like diamonds and meat).

Veganism is only about doing the most that is practical. Vegans can and do use animal products; they just avoid the ones that are practical to avoid, and work at trying, step by step, to do better.

There are many bad things people do, and nothing stops a vegan from doing other bad things, aside from supporting animal agriculture (although they should also stop doing those other bad things).
There are also many reasons people do bad things. Mostly due to ignorance. Often due to laziness. Only extremely rarely due to true malice.

Remember how I said laziness is the second most terrible reason there is?
Malice is the worst, but it's phenomenally rare. Almost everybody who does terrible things believes he or she is a good person, and that included Hitler.

Whenever I am "throwing away and poluting" global watter supply, I do not think about it. I do not think about sick childeren. I think about how nice a shower is and what I am going to wear afterwards. The same is with eating a steak or fried shrimp on sunday.

If that's true, that's part of what makes you a bad person -- apathy to the suffering of others.
A good person does think about those things, enough that that person will do some research to learn more about them, and discover the best easy changes he or she can make to his or her life to help.

I am removed (like most people) from the problem, and does not impact me directly.

If it did impact you directly, then it would be a selfish thing to do, not a moral thing to do.

Also eating vegetarian (or vegan) 6 days a week, I do far better and I ensure you am more healthier than people who eat burgers every day. I am however not a 100% vegan and will probably not be for mentioned reasons.

If you eat vegan six days a week, that's great. And I hope you keep doing better. We should ALL strive to do a little better all the time. Use fewer animal products. Cut consumption of palm oil. Reduce fossil fuel usage. Use less water where practical, etc.

There are many things we can all work on improving. It's true that some vegans think "I'm vegan, that's all I need to do", and that's a bad attitude to have.

I agree that eating mostly plant based diet is healthy. But to be so fanatical about it, that you would not eat something that has a trace of milk or animal product is religious.

You aren't describing most vegans. You aren't even describing the position of the major organizations that advocate veganism.
See this link:

http://www.peta.org/living/food/making- ... ucts-food/

Don't sweat the small stuff.
We need to devote our energy to making the most meaningful changes.

Eating an entirely plant-based diet is healthy (and I'm not talking about avoiding traces of this or that, which don't really matter).

B-12 comes from bacteria, and is best gotten from supplements. It's in commercial meat because the animals were fed B-12 in their feed. The levels are much lower in meat than in supplements. Carnists, particularly the elderly, can become B-12 deficient too.

The iron and Omega 3 thing is a myth. For Omega 3, you need to watch your oil consumption, and not consume so many Omega 6 rich oils. In the case of Iron, it's not an issue unless you're a woman with very heavy bleeding.

We can school you on nutrition if you need, but there's no good reason to eat meat today.

So. Where in your opinion would you say that someone is moral, and other is immoral? Is veganism the measurement? Is it the "line" between moral and immoral conduct?

It's a question of the balance of one's actions.

It's very difficult to do enough good to outweigh the act of supporting animal agriculture, though. Particularly given how easy it is to simply not consume those products.

Even if I skip my steak on sundays, there will still be another level of morality above this. So why not say those who drive cars to work are immoral? Why not set the bar even higher?

You should set it higher. Many vegans are falling far short. But consider this:

It's less about where you are, than where you are going. Habit is easy, we get used to it. It's challenging ourselves to continue to make positive changes in our lives that's hard.

I'm more impressed with somebody who is reducing meat consumption every day, and making constant effort to improve than somebody who is just vegan and has given up on doing better because he or she has decided that's as good as it gets.

Or why not lower? Certain things are considered immoral by the majority of people (murder, rape, theft, genocide etc.) Guess what? Eating meat is not amongst them. Not yet atleast.

Nor was slavery in the past. It was still wrong, though.

If you're satisfied with being just as immoral as your average peer, that's a pretty low bar you've set for yourself.
You can do better than that.

We can all do better than that, and we can all do better than we did yesterday.

Yes. Me consuming meat on weekends does make me responsible for a tiny percentage of more animals that are being killed. But that does not make much diference in grand scheme of things.

You vastly underestimate the effect of meat consumption; it makes a huge difference in the grand scheme of things. Look into the numbers (we can help you, if you like).

You SHOULD challenge others on all of those points you mentioned. That's a great debate to have. Do you have ideas on how we can improve our consumption? Great. Please offer them. You can help us become better people.

But while you offer up suggestions for others, make sure not to neglect your own moral progress in the process.
Quitting meat is something you can do, that's not hard, will improve your health, and is meaningful.

If you ignore our criticism because you think vegans do bad things too, that's a fallacy:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

We all have things we can learn from each other. We all have ways we can improve. We should focus on what we can do better, and how we can help each other do better.

[Lightningman_42]

Welcome to the forum Dan. From what I've read so far it looks like you have some curiosity about what veganism is and what its merits are. Some of our other forum members have already addressed some of your questions and claims. Jebus and EquALLity gave some informative replies that I suggest you go over again. I think that brimstoneSalad answered all of your remaining questions about the moral aspects. I see some concerns of yours that I'd like to address as well, and I'll focus entirely on nutrition.

...the top reason they give, that they stopped being vegan is them having health problems.

Could you describe what sort of health problems in particular? If they simply felt weak (lacking energy) then they were likely under-eating. If they relied on meat and other animal products as a major source of calories and protein, and then their style of "vegan diet" was simply to eat whatever they were eating before, minus all of the animal products, then it's no surprise if they felt weak or unsatisfied.

Here's my advice to pull off a vegan diet successfully:

-Get enough calories in your diet and do not exercise "calorie restriction."

- Eat plenty and eat varied. Eat until you feel full. If you eat plenty of carbohydrate-rich foods (whole grains and fruits); and plenty of high-protein foods (beans, lentils, peanuts, tofu, tree nuts, quinoa, wheat bulgar, dark-colored rice, whole grains, etc.); then you should feel satisfied (with plenty of energy)!

-Vegan sources of Omega-3: seeds (flax seeds, chia seeds, hemp seeds, etc.); nuts (walnuts, almonds, cashews, pistachios, etc.), black beans, seaweed, cauliflower, various other vegetables, etc. I recommend researching "vegan sources of Omega-3" if you're interested to know more.

-Vegan sources of Iron: chickpeas, lentils, tofu, leafy-green vegetables, various nuts, etc. I did a quick google search and found: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.php

-Vitamin C (which improves how well your body can absorb non-heme iron): broccoli, sweet potatoes, strawberries, kiwis, pineapples, all citrus fruits.

-Vitamin A: carrots, sweet potatoes, mangoes, leafy-green vegetables

-B-vitamins (except B12): nuts, beans, and vegetables

-Vitamin B12 (artificial vegan sources): B12 supplements, B12-fortified nondairy milks, B12-fortified cereals

-Vitamin B12 (natural vegan sources): B12 is not produced by any type of plants or animals. It's produced by bacteria, and you can get B12 naturally by consuming dirty fruits and vegetables , drinking from dirty rivers (I don't recommend that though), or eating your own shit (bacteria in your lower intestines and colon produce B12, but that's too far down to efficiently absorb enough). I don't recommend eating shit either, but many herbivorous animals do it, so shit is arguably the most "natural" source of B12. I hope you can agree with me that just because something is "natural" does not guarantee that we ought to view it as the best way of doing something. Therefore, I recommend the artificial sources of B12, which are perfectly healthy, sufficient, and of course vegan.

[Dan388]

Thank you for replies.

Regarding B12 and my health. I will trust my doctor who, on one of my mandatory check-ups says that I'm in good condition with no serious risks of chronical diseases in near future. And I trust him more than a random person on internet, who did not even meet me, let alone inspect my blood or urine. The only modernate risk factor seem to be my lower back, that is correlated with lifting heavy objects. That however has nothing to do with my diet.

Could I be even more healthy? I admit I do not live 100% healthy life all the time, and there is possible to improve my health, specially as I will get older. However I do not know many people who do, except fitnes/health gurus. I eat and live as healthy as possible with as little investment as possible, and am striking a balance between enjoyment and health. If that includes frozen yogurt, or broccoli with cheese, so be it. Food taste and enjoyment has afterall a large impact on sustainability of my diet. I could remove cheese out of my broccoli, but then, I would stop eating broccoli. I would severely cut my greens intake, if I cannot combine it with a small percentage of animal products. My breakfast for example is 100% vegan, and it contains product made of fruit (a 100% vegan, home made marmelade). However I can not immagine it witouth cofee (no milk or sugar, just pure black delicious caffeine). I know that coffe isn't greatest thing in the world, but it won't kill me, specially if it makes my otherwise more halthy food more enjoyable.
I see no reason to cut out all animal products (except for ideology or morality), if this means folowing my plant based diet easier. It would be to no benefit, if I switch to 100% vegan, then end up eating chips and beer exclusively.

Regarding B12 supplenets, I see your point, and it is very informative . However I will still refuse to take it willingly, and won't take it even if one day I decide to become a 100% vegan. People even as recently as 50 years ago, did not take the pills, and they were, and are just fine. I do not intend to live forever anyway. The old practice of low meat, low fat and lots of fruit and vegetables is working just fine. I am not a go-to guy for health advice, and if someone is asking me personaly for nutrition, I advise him to see someone more exprienced with this field. It may not work for everyone, but for me it's fine.

Now regarding moral and laziness: The main point I was trying to make was this: We, who live in more or less developed countries (I konw my country some consider less developed, but I assure all Americans who visit, that we indeed have roads made of tarmac), with most of our actions are causing damage to the enviorment and to other human beings. Just by paying taxes, we are giving support to our goverment's military operations, and are indirectly killing other humans. Just by driving a car, we support oiling companies. Our very existance costs lives of countless humans and animals. Ofcourse everyone is trying to do as less negative impact as possible, but why cut the line with meat consumption? Why is milions of people all over the world, who could ride a bicycle to work instead of a car, but choose not to ok, but consuming some animal products bad? who made the line between - eating meat = bad, driving car = ok? Why is being lazy about not wanting to get up 40 minutes earlier and taking bike ride to work ok, but being lazy to go to 100% vegan not ok? I find myself first option much much easier to do in a sustainable fashion. What is a reasoning behind picking one random harmfull thing in average human's life (eating meat) and consider it bad, out of all the other harmfull practices we do, with our very existence?

[brimstoneSalad]

and am striking a balance between enjoyment and health. If that includes frozen yogurt, or broccoli with cheese, so be it. Food taste and enjoyment has afterall a large impact on sustainability of my diet. I could remove cheese out of my broccoli, but then, I would stop eating broccoli. I would severely cut my greens intake, if I cannot combine it with a small percentage of animal products.

That's a false dilemma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

It's absurd to say a person can not eat broccoli without cheese, or enjoy broccoli without cheese. It's equally absurd to assert that you are such a person, incapable of eating or enjoying healthy food without slathering it with unhealthy substances.

Do you really think, that from the time you were born until now, your tastes have never changed? Have you never learned to like something that you used to dislike? Have you never lost a taste for something?

Broccoli is perfectly delicious on its own. You are just habituated to putting cheese on it. This is a bad habit, like somebody who only drinks sugary soda and is unwilling to drink water.
You can very easily break that habit, and learn to enjoy broccoli without cheese.

One of the most common ways to do that would be to put less cheese on your broccoli every day, and replace it e.g. by putting a little salt on it, maybe pepper, or drizzling with olive oil. Over time, the cheese would be reduced until it's gone, and you'd be eating broccoli without cheese and enjoying it as much as you liked it with. After a few years, if you ate it with cheese again, you'd likely find it too greasy, and would discover it gives you more gas and constipation.

Human experience and taste is extremely flexible. To deny that is ignorance.
You can very easily adapt your tastes to a more healthy diet, and enjoy the healthier diet without animal products as much as you ever did the less healthy one.

Regarding B12 supplenets, I see your point, and it is very informative . However I will still refuse to take it willingly, and won't take it even if one day I decide to become a 100% vegan.

That's unreasonable. It's not a giant horse pill you have to swallow, or a shot. It's just a tiny candy that you can chew and get thousands of percent of B-12. You'd need to eat it something like once a week. It would cost a couple dollars a year, at most.

B-12 is not artificial, made by scary chemicals. It's made by natural bacteria that are fed things like sugar or starch, and they produce it. It's just precipitated and cleaned and mixed with some sugar and made into a little lozenge.

It's cheap, it's easy, and it benefits your health. It's irrational to not take it.

Our very existance costs lives of countless humans and animals. Ofcourse everyone is trying to do as less negative impact as possible, but why cut the line with meat consumption?

I already covered this. We should not draw the line at being vegan and then give up. We should all do more. Being vegan is like the bare minimum somebody can do -- it's something which is both very easy, and has a big impact.

Being vegan might take 30 minutes a day. For example, soaking beans and setting them to cook, or walking a few more minutes to get food. It will also save you time later in life on chronic illness and hospital visits and bills.

Being vegan will save something like 200 animals a year from suffering. And will remove your contribution to the part of global warming caused by animal agriculture; something like 16%.
I went over the numbers here: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... ?f=7&t=654

On the other hand, riding a bike has different costs. Maybe an hour and twenty minutes a day for you, right? It will save you money on car insurance and maintenance. But it's also much more dangerous (injury and death from bike riding is a serious risk -- veganism means lower risk of mortality from disease, and no higher risk of injury), but it also provides exercise.
And how many lives does riding a bike save? (this is much harder to estimate)
How much contribution to global warming does riding a bike prevent?

Well, currently cars may contribute more than animal agriculture, in terms of CO2 and released geological sources of methane. This could be around 30% of the human contribution. That's big, and it's enough to say that we really should avoid keeping and driving conventional cars.

There are pros and cons to it.

The bottom line is that it's much easier to go vegan than to stop driving a car. And going vegan contributes more positively to your personal health than riding a bike.

There are more personal pros, and fewer personal cons to going vegan. And in terms of time expenditure to climate change prevention?

Going vegan: 30 minutes = 16%
Riding a bike: 80 minutes = 30%

If you can do basic math, you can tell me which one is the better deal.

We should really do both of these, but for most people going vegan is the easier thing to do with the larger impact relative to personal effort.
We should also avoid palm oil in food (particularly), and in other products too where practical.

There are many things we should do that require little personal effort, but have a big effect.

Why is being lazy about not wanting to get up 40 minutes earlier and taking bike ride to work ok, but being lazy to go to 100% vegan not ok?

You should really take public transit instead of biking, or live closer to your work, but neither of those are OK.
However, you have to be MORE lazy to not go vegan, since going vegan is easier.

Take these two examples of saving a life:

1. Somebody is trapped in a burning warehouse that's collapsing, full of smoke. To save this life, you have to risk your own by going into the warehouse, and find the person (which you may not even be able to), and drag him or her to safety. It will take several minutes, and you will suffer from smoke inhalation, and may die. Not doing this is much more reasonable, due to the difficulty and degree of personal risk. We might call somebody a hero for doing this, but we wouldn't call him or her a monster for not doing this.

2. Somebody at your office has slipped from the balcony and is hanging on to the rail. To save the life you need ten seconds to take a couple steps over, grab his or her arm, and help him or her back up. There is almost zero risk to you personally. This is easy. Not doing this would be extremely unethical because of the ease of the action; we would call a person who couldn't be bothered to save this life a monster.

Get it? Both are cases of saving a life, but in different situations with different levels of difficulty and personal risk.

Riding a bike for a couple hours a day on busy streets at personal risk is more like #1. Going vegan is like #2: super easy.

I find myself first option much much easier to do in a sustainable fashion.

That's because you are misinformed on how easy it is to go vegan, or you don't realize the risks inherent in riding a bike in commute every day.

Electric cars are getting cheaper, and as they do, it will be less excusable to drive a gas vehicle. Public transit is also getting better in major cities, with subways and rail expanding all of the time.
There is little excuse for driving a car in most cities.
There is even less excuse for not going vegan.

[garrethdsouza]

Even I had the back pain issue I had no idea why until I switched to vegan and its all gone. Later I saw greggers videos on it
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url=htt ... f4CbwRlcoQ