Philosophical Vegan Forum

As the username may suggest, I'm here to ask one question that I've always wanted to ask intelligent vegans, and the title is it. What is it referring to?

So as an intelligent rational person I always found the arguments given to be a vegan fascinating because to be completely frank, if you have the ability to survive without eating an animal, then certainly it makes moral sense to not eat it so it doesn't have to die, right?

I got to thinking about it and realized why I never cared about the fact I was killing non-humans for my own pleasure. And it hasn't got any rational explanation or argument to justify it - like any other innate emotional reaction, there is no reason. It simply is: I don't care. I don't care enough about the lives of the animals I eat to give up the pleasure of eating them. I inherently, for no discernible reason, value my own pleasure from eating them more than their lives, even though they are sentient, and can feel pain, and can suffer, and can feel pleasure as well. Furthermore, the fact that this feeling has no justification doesn't bother me either, even though in most other matters, like religion, philosophy politics or what have you, lack of rational support for a position would irritate me and I would likely not take that position. But eating meat is an exception. It just is.

Now I know WHY this innate feeling exists: it's not exactly evolutionarily advantageous to care more about the lives of the animals you can eat than about your desire to eat them. Making yourself emotionally numb to killing other animals so you can eat their flesh without qualms makes sense in a survival situation. But it's still not rational to hold at this point in time. And yet, I still don't care.

Now that I know this, is it even possible to argue against this? I suspect this kind of thinking exists in most humans and is the underlying reason people who don't have to eat meat to survive do so anyway, besides tradition and habit (after all, what forms those traditions and habits?). I mean, since this is inherently irrational, there isn't really anything you could say to convince me to change my position is there?

Who knows, maybe you're all geniuses and can come up with something. We'll see.

Do you think you would remain emotionally numb if you went to a slaughter house and witnessed the suffering first hand? Does it also not bother you seeing a dog suffer? What about human beings? Do images of suffering people invoke any feelings of sympathy?

I realize that there are people who don't care at all about anything but themselves. If talking to such a person I would focus on the health aspect of veganism. The consumption of animal products greatly increases the chance of YOU suffering at a later point in life.

Nice!^

Also, you know that animals aren't just killed on factory farms, right? They're abused (Do you have a problem with that, and is it just the killing itself you don't care about? Or are you completely indifferent to harm to non-human animals?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32IDVdgmzKA

I don't think most people are indifferent like that. I think this explains it well:

brimstoneSalad wrote:When normal humans are causing suffering to others, they're compelled to care, and have to come up with all kinds of nonsense to justify the suffering -- it's that nonsense which is easy to debunk, revealing the default condition of giving a shit about the suffering of others.

Also, there's not really much to argue against. You didn't advance an argument, you just said that you don't give a shit about our arguments about the ethics of eating meat, because you don't care about animals. You didn't really make an argument against veganism. It'd be like a theist saying, "Well, I just don't care that my god has been proven false. I still believe in him. Checkmate atheists."

Also,

OneQuestion wrote:So as an intelligent rational person I always found

OneQuestion wrote:I mean, since this is inherently irrational, there isn't really anything you could say to convince me to change my position is there?

You can't maintain that you're rational when you understand you have an irrational position, but just don't give a shit.

Don't forget about the environmental implications. Non-human animals don't care about that, but humans (including you) will suffer the effects of climate change. Eating meat is irrational, lose-lose, in every sense. Carnists harm their own health and environment, as well as harm non-human animals.

Maybe you don't care that it's so irrational, or that it's harming other humans (and yourself).

EquALLity nailed it with the last point, in noting your contradiction.

Indeed, it might surprise you, but there are many vegans who don't care about animals, and are only vegan for purposes for rational consistency -- so that they can honestly call themselves rational people.

If you knowingly do something irrational, and you don't care, you are by definition not a rational person. Just like a Christian who knows 'god' is illogical and that the faith based belief is irrational, but does it anyway because he or she just doesn't care.

Your enjoyment of meat isn't a given. You'd miss it for a little while, like quitting smoking. After a few months, much less, and after a few years generally little not no desire for meat at all. It's just a fact of biology that our tastes change.

You may not realize it, but to us you sound like a delusional Christian who says he or she can't live without god, or life would have to meaning without Jesus. Most of us ate meat and dairy before giving it up, and most of us didn't give it up because we didn't like it.

OneQuestion wrote:Now I know WHY this innate feeling exists: it's not exactly evolutionarily advantageous to care more about the lives of the animals you can eat than about your desire to eat them. Making yourself emotionally numb to killing other animals so you can eat their flesh without qualms makes sense in a survival situation.

Following from that, don't forget that the same is true for other tribes; basically, any human who is not your in your extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins). Our ability to form intimate social connections starts waning at around 50 people. Beyond that, evolutionarily, you wouldn't necessarily be inclined to give a shit about anybody or anything.

And yet, that's not true in practice; empathy extends beyond family, and even beyond species -- and that's not only seen in humans. Different species of animals helping each other out is very common among warm blooded tetrapod herbivores who share environments (oddly, can even be found in fish and crustaceans). There are also bizarre and highly publicized examples like dolphins saving humans, and humans saving dolphins.

Look into game theory. Sometimes it makes sense for intelligent beings to help each other out for no immediately identifiable reason. Destroying each other when there's nothing to gain from it is not useful.

Jebus wrote:Do you think you would remain emotionally numb if you went to a slaughter house and witnessed the suffering first hand? Does it also not bother you seeing a dog suffer? What about human beings? Do images of suffering people invoke any feelings of sympathy?

I realize that there are people who don't care at all about anything but themselves. If talking to such a person I would focus on the health aspect of veganism. The consumption of animal products greatly increases the chance of YOU suffering at a later point in life.

In order:

1. I've never been to a slaughter house physically; I've watched the documentaries about how they work. Didn't really phase me. I noticed the workers there acted, as you would call, 'brutally' towards the livestock because they saw them as crops, food in the making, not lives.

2. Torturing a dog seems kind of like an abuse of power; I mean, it's brainwashed to love you unconditionally as it is, seems like you're taking advantage of it to act out some sadistic pleasure. But then again, I don't typically view dogs as food. I suspect if I did, I wouldn't care so much.

3. Of course I feel empathy for humans.

EquALLity wrote: You can't maintain that you're rational when you understand you have an irrational position, but just don't give a shit.

But can anybody actually be completely rational? I mean, you'd have to either have no emotions, or never let your emotions override your logical faculties.

Plus, would an irrational person even acknowledge he has no necessity to do what he does?

brimstoneSalad wrote: You may not realize it, but to us you sound like a delusional Christian who says he or she can't live without god, or life would have to meaning without Jesus. Most of us ate meat and dairy before giving it up, and most of us didn't give it up because we didn't like it.

There's a difference in the question though.

When asking "Does God exist?" you're asking about an objective fact about reality. Does this thing exist or not?

When asking "Is it right to eat animals?", you're asking whether humans should consider it morally right to do so. The objective response to that question would be "The universe has no morality, so it doesn't matter."

OneQuestion wrote:Of course I feel empathy for humans.

I understand your empathy only extends to animals who you don't use as food sources. Why do you think that is?

Also, do you understand that animal products are really bad for you? If yes, why do you keep eating them?

Jebus wrote:

OneQuestion wrote:Of course I feel empathy for humans.

I understand your empathy only extends to animals who you don't use as food sources. Why do you think that is?

Also, do you understand that animal products are really bad for you? If yes, why do you keep eating them?

Like I said, probably evolved this way. Not a good survival strategy to feel killing your food source is immoral.

I know vegans love to harp on about how eating animals is bad for your health - it isn't true. Not in any huge way. At least, not if you're not shovelling down 5 fat-covered steaks everyday. Even then I suppose there's a chance it could slightly increase it, but I'm increasing my risk of heart disease more from the baked goods I buy at the bakery than the meat I eat; doesn't mean I'm going to stop eating desserts. Or meat. Hell, alcohol damages your liver and has basically no nutritional value at all - I still drink it.

OneQuestion wrote:I know vegans love to harp on about how eating animals is bad for your health

Not just vegans. Pretty much anyone with a brain.