Philosophical Vegan Forum

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am When did I say that?

You implied it in the past saying how you hate liberals, so it only makes sense to think that you consider liberalism to be a less extreme form of progressivism (more right wing), and you said later in your post that liberalism is more limited.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am Maybe, but the point that I was making wasn't that most Americans didn't define "liberal" and "left" interchangeably.

The PragerU video you linked implied that.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 amThe point I was making was that since any Americans who would be considered left on European spectrum would either not define themselves as liberal or actively reject the term, it shows that even in the United States, it is only really people who would be on the centre of a European spectrum who should be considered "liberal".

How do you figure?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am Right, and they'd still be considered liberal policies in Europe. They would not, however, be considered "left-wing".

In America, they are considered left wing.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 amMost major European parties (even the conservative ones) support universal healthcare and gay rights.

Yeah since those things are considered very radical here in the US it's like it's shifted to the left some.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but even things like Medicare and Medicaid are considered extreme (no conservative protests them, since they are usually old and benefit from these things), and businesses are still allowed to discriminate against homosexuals. It's a very depressing state of affairs.

On the bright side, most people are in support of Obamacare. This is a hunch, but I predict that within the next century or so, we'll see the implementation of a single-payer system.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 amUBI is generally finds support from the left, but there are still some prominent centrists and conservatives who support it.

In Europe. You walk over all conservative states in US, you'll be pressed to find someone who supports UBI (even though they are the ones that usually need it most, but oh well). You go to a left leaning (I chose that word carefully) place like New York or Califronia, just about everyone would be on board.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am "Human centred capitalism" is fairly similar to a social market economy, which in Europe is generally considered centrist.

Are you arguing for everything in the European sense here? I think something got lost in translation.

Anyway based on what Yang said about HCC on his website, it includes social welfare programs (most especially UBI), and increased regulation on Capitalism, which is considered very left here in America. This is a guess but it might also be considered a left wing policy in Europe since liberalism (European definition) has a focus on economic freedom, and this is calling for a regulation. Or is it neoliberalism? Ugh so many terms, so little time.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am Yes, but most Americans who have views similar to his are still unlikely to describe themselves as liberal,

I think I have extremely similar politics to him, but I'd still consider myself to be liberal. Though I prefer the term progressive.

I can't find an easy link describing his policies other than Wikipedia can you send something? Oh yeah and Miliband has described himself as socialist according to Wikipedia, but you said he's not anti-capitalist so I don't know what to make of this.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am if they don't actively reject the term.

Well why wouldn't they actively reject the term?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 amI think the confusion comes from the fact that people with social democratic viewpoints have only surfaced as a mainstream group recently, and since the people who have considered themselves "liberal" were seen on the left of an American spectrum, and social democrats were on the left, people just started calling social democrats "liberals".

Right.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am On a European spectrum, social democracy and anything further left.

I'm talking in reference to the American spectrum. I think this is where the confusion is coming from.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am My point in linking these videos is that they indicate that people aren't calling themselves "progressive" in order to distance themselves from "SJWs", as if that were the case, Dave Rubin and other "anti-SJWs" would be calling themselves "progressive" rather than "liberal".

Well, that was just a guess I made about why Progressive is starting to be more popular. I never said that with absolute certainty.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am Why?

Since Prager is saying that the terms leftist and liberal are generally used interchangeably, and describing how leftist refers more to SJWs and liberalism is distinct from that. I think Prager said something about using Progressive instead of Liberal if people prefer in some other video.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am Given the fact that the people who would willingly call themselves "liberal" in the United States are generally on the centre of a European spectrum,

Again, even people much further to the left of the center in America are considered liberal.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 amand given the fact that there isn't any evidence for people calling themselves "progressive" rather than "liberal" in order to distance themselves from "SJWs" (and that the people who we can confirm do want to distance themselves from "SJWs" tend to refer to themselves as "liberal" anyway),

So what do you think of that PragerU video on leftist vs liberal?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 am Some Americans may refer to certain viewpoints in that way, but it doesn't change the fact that the people who hold these viewpoints won't refer to themselves as "liberal".

Again, how do you know?

Red wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:27 am You implied it in the past saying how you hate liberals, so it only makes sense to think that you consider liberalism to be a less extreme form of progressivism (more right wing), and you said later in your post that liberalism is more limited.

My viewpoint about liberalism has shifted from what I've stated in the past. As a matter of fact, I renounced what I had said about hating liberals like within ten minutes of having originally stated it.

I do indeed believe that it is a less extreme form of progressivism, but that does not make it a separate entity to progressivism.

The PragerU video you linked implied that.

That wasn't the intention. The intention was to indicate that progressivism was more closely associated with "SJWs" than liberalism.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:39 amThe point I was making was that since any Americans who would be considered left on European spectrum would either not define themselves as liberal or actively reject the term, it shows that even in the United States, it is only really people who would be on the centre of a European spectrum who should be considered "liberal".

How do you figure?

By the fact that most American people and organisations who'd be considered "left" on a European spectrum either don't associate with the term "liberal" (e.g. Democratic Socialists of America) or actively reject it (e.g. Black Socialists of America).

In America, they are considered left wing.

For sure, but the point I'm trying to make here is that the "liberalism" which is viewed as left-wing in the United States is still the same "liberalism" which is viewed as centrist in Europe.

Are you arguing for everything in the European sense here? I think something got lost in translation.

Anyway based on what Yang said about HCC on his website, it includes social welfare programs (most especially UBI), and increased regulation on Capitalism, which is considered very left here in America. This is a guess but it might also be considered a left wing policy in Europe since liberalism (European definition) has a focus on economic freedom, and this is calling for a regulation. Or is it neoliberalism? Ugh so many terms, so little time.

European centrist political parties are generally in favour of regulated capitalism. In Europe, Yang's policies would probably be considered vaguely left-of-centre due to having UBI (which is still generally supported more by the left in Europe). However, aside from UBI, most of the stuff he calls for is already in place (heavily funded welfare state, regulated capitalism, etc.) and so is considered "centre ground".

I think I have extremely similar politics to him, but I'd still consider myself to be liberal. Though I prefer the term progressive.

I think you might be an outlier. People with views similar to his (e.g. Bernie and AOC who agree with him on pretty much everything other than nuclear energy) tend to not use the term "liberal", even though it has been used to describe them.

I can't find an easy link describing his policies other than Wikipedia can you send something?

https://action.labour.org.uk/page/-/A4% ... LAYOUT.pdf

Oh yeah and Miliband has described himself as socialist according to Wikipedia, but you said he's not anti-capitalist so I don't know what to make of this.

Since the formation of the Labour Party, there have been people who oppose worker ownership of the means of production who have called themselves "socialist", Hugh Gaitskell (who wanted to abolish Clause IV) and Tony Blair (who succeeded in doing so) being the most notable ones. Especially during the Blair years, the widespread perception of what "socialism" meant had shifted a great deal, aside from a few on the Labour left. Miliband was to the left of Blair, however, he still supported capitalism and so, despite calling himself a socialist, he would more accurately be considered a social democrat. Under Corbyn, the traditional definition of socialism as regards the common ownership of the means of production has moved more into the mainstream.

Well why wouldn't they actively reject the term?

In order to not alienate people who would consider themselves "liberal". Even the Black Socialists of America have said something along the lines of "Most people who consider themselves 'liberal' are really just socialists who don't know it yet".

I'm talking in reference to the American spectrum. I think this is where the confusion is coming from.

On an American spectrum, it would be on the left. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's the same ideology as liberalism in Europe.

Since Prager is saying that the terms leftist and liberal are generally used interchangeably, and describing how leftist refers more to SJWs and liberalism is distinct from that.

Yes, but that wasn't the point in which I linked the video to respond to. I accept the fact that the terms "liberal" and "leftist" are generally used interchangeably in the United States. However, I linked that video as well as "Why I left the left" to demonstrate that many people are using the word "liberal" as a word to distinguish themselves from "SJWs" rather than "progressive".

I think Prager said something about using Progressive instead of Liberal if people prefer in some other video.

Considering what has been said about progressives on PragerU's videos and what has been said about liberals, I would be very surprised if Prager said something like that. Are you sure it was him?

Again, even people much further to the left of the center in America are considered liberal.

Yes, but they're unlikely to consider themselves liberal.

So what do you think of that PragerU video on leftist vs liberal?

It's not generally accurate, but I linked it to show how people are distinguishing the word "liberal" from "SJWs".

Again, how do you know?

I don't. It's only a guess, but I'm making it based on the fact that I've yet to see any major American politician or organisation that would be considered left-wing on a European spectrum refer to themselves as "liberal", and I've also seen many actively reject the term.

It really surprises me there aren't more Progressive Libertarians. I think a major problem with progressivism right now is intersectionality. Republicans also suffer a similar plague but I don't believe they use that name for it.
Of course to the people who only follow Progressive pages, Libertarians are only Republicans who smoke weed.
On a lot of actual libertarian sites, we bash the Republicans almost as much as we bash Democrats.

If somebody says they're libertarian and they support a border wall, they're not Libertarian. If they are for laws that limit women's access to abortion, they're not libertarian. If they support President Trump, whether or not they voted for him, they're not libertarian. That blonde girl with the ramen noodle haircut who shoot herself, pretty much anybody who follows her is not libertarian.
Some of the group I'm in spend a lot of time collecting for individual altruism.

Since I'm assuming most of the people on here are Progressive, think of it this way; your view of libertarianism is likely skewed in the same way that progressivism is skewed by those who watch Fox News exclusively.
Apologies for not being able to bait on a point-by-point basis, but this post alone was bad enough without a keyboard.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:32 pm

PsYcHo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:29 pm To answer zzzzzzz (time restraints and lack of keyboard necessitate simplicity)

Libertarian definition- individual rights outweigh the group.

Socialist definition- the group's rights outweigh the right of the individual

Would you consider libertarianism to be synonymous with individualism, and socialism to be synonymous with collectivism?

(tries to suppress sarcastic impulse)
Yes. Yes I do.

Damn, I go offline for a while, and Z-zzzzzzzz learns decent English. Life, eh?

PsYcHo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:42 am

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:32 pm

PsYcHo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:29 pm To answer zzzzzzz (time restraints and lack of keyboard necessitate simplicity)

Libertarian definition- individual rights outweigh the group.

Socialist definition- the group's rights outweigh the right of the individual

Would you consider libertarianism to be synonymous with individualism, and socialism to be synonymous with collectivism?

(tries to suppress sarcastic impulse)
Yes. Yes I do.

I think Libertarian Socialist Rants is more individualist than collectivist but I'm not sure.