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Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:45 am
by Classic
Volenta wrote:I'm in principle open to making this letter, but how can you reach him? Matt Dillahunty is much closer to the 'YouTube-community'.

By the way: What? Penn & Teller are also environmental "skeptics"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_ ... skepticism
This is partly due to their libertarian leanings. In this link, the philosopher Massimo Pigluicci (he's no consequentialist though, he's a virtue ethicist) addresses this issue:

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/ ... lshit.html

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:36 am
by brimstoneSalad
Classic wrote: This is partly due to their libertarian leanings. In this link, the philosopher Massimo Pigluicci (he's no consequentialist though, he's a virtue ethicist) addresses this issue:

http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/ ... lshit.html
Thanks for the link.

Virtue ethics isn't utilitarianism, but it is a form of consequentialism (when coherent and properly substantiated, anyway), because virtue ethics usually looks at the consequences of behaviors and actions in terms of how they cultivate virtue (or don't), and further typically substantiates the value of virtues based on their positive consequences (although they don't always substantiate them).

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:56 am
by Classic
brimstoneSalad wrote: Virtue ethics isn't utilitarianism, but it is a form of consequentialism (when coherent and properly substantiated, anyway), because virtue ethics usually looks at the consequences of behaviors and actions in terms of how they cultivate virtue (or don't), and further typically substantiates the value of virtues based on their positive consequences (although they don't always substantiate them).
Well, in normative ethics, virtue ethics is generally viewed as a third stance, contrasted with consequentialism and deontology, though it has only a few percentage of adherents among philosophers.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-virtue/
http://www.iep.utm.edu/virtue/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics

But yeah, I think I agree with you. Actually, a similar case has been issued against the deontological discourse too! John Stuart Mill, at the beginning of Utilitarianism said the following:

"This remarkable man [Kant], whose system of thought will long remain one of the landmarks in the history of philosophical thought, lays down in that treatise a universal first principle as the origin and ground of moral obligation: Act in such a way that the rule on which you act could be adopted as a law by all rational beings. But when he begins to derive any of the actual duties of morality from this principle he fails, almost grotesquely, to show that there would be any contradiction—any logical impossibility, or even any physical impossibility—in the adoption by all rational beings of the most outrageously immoral rules of conduct. All he shows is that the universal adoption of such rules would have consequences that no-one would choose to bring about."

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:13 am
by brimstoneSalad
Classic wrote: Well, in normative ethics, virtue ethics is generally viewed as a third stance, contrasted with consequentialism and deontology,
Yeah, that's more just due to people who are obsessed with divisional classification. I mean, look how many different categories of interpretations people think exist for quantum mechanics. There are really just three, and even those can to some significant degree be folded into each other.
Classic wrote:though it has only a few percentage of adherents among philosophers.
I think that's because philosophers tend to think themselves clever people capable of working things out directly without the "middle-man" nature of virtue ethics.
Virtue ethics is a little bit intellectually insulting, but there is a good point to be made that humans are idiots.

The question of whether virtue ethics is the best system isn't so much a philosophical one, but more of an empirical one based on the consequences of its application.

I would be extremely interested in talking to a non-theistic virtue ethicist who didn't consider his or herself a consequentialist.
Classic wrote:Actually, a similar case has been issued against the deontological discourse too! John Stuart Mill, at the beginning of Utilitarianism said the following:

"This remarkable man [Kant], whose system of thought will long remain one of the landmarks in the history of philosophical thought, lays down in that treatise a universal first principle as the origin and ground of moral obligation: Act in such a way that the rule on which you act could be adopted as a law by all rational beings. But when he begins to derive any of the actual duties of morality from this principle he fails, almost grotesquely, to show that there would be any contradiction—any logical impossibility, or even any physical impossibility—in the adoption by all rational beings of the most outrageously immoral rules of conduct. All he shows is that the universal adoption of such rules would have consequences that no-one would choose to bring about."
Great quote, although I think you mistake him. It seems to me he was calling Kant an idiot who didn't understand that his assertions were arbitrary, and not logical necessity.
And then saying, as an aside, that the only reason his counter-examples are convincing to anybody is because of their consequences.

Kant's entire system bears consequences, if ever anybody really acted it out, that nobody would want. I think the modern Randroid is about as close as you can get, but I don't think sane people will ever let them take over... I hope, anyway.

EDIT: Kant was an idiot about deontology, but he did some good and brilliant work too; I don't mean to disparage the other things he did. Although his greatest legacy also happens to be pretty much the worst idea anybody ever had, so on the balance he may be in trouble.

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 11:46 am
by EquALLity
brimstoneSalad wrote:That would be because they're playing in flash. You may have to monkey around with the URL to force it to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/co ... nd_of_any/

https://www.youtube.com/html5

What videos in particular is it not working for?
I'll see if it does for me.

It's usually not worth the time to watch videos at normal speed.
This one, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEuGNorYHAY

I'll check those links.
brimstoneSalad wrote:It's pretty much like uploading an image to an image sharing site. Just search "download youtube audio" and pick one, then input the link and it will give you a download.

I can't really recommend any one or another, I think they're all pretty much the same.
You can also download youtube videos the same way.

We could also look at the titles and probably guess if they'll be likely to be relevant. There may only be a few dozen videos with a good chance of containing anything we'd want to reply to.
Are you familiar with this? Do you know which links apply to what?

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 1:21 pm
by brimstoneSalad
See the "HD and MP3"?

Ah, yes, it seems there are some that haven't been moved over yet for some reason.
There are a couple addons that might help. http://www.guidingtech.com/35075/force-html5-videos/
I've read the one in firefox might work alright.

But if you download, you can watch or listen at any speed you want.

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 3:03 pm
by knot
Just FYI, Penn seems to be quite active on Twitter and it looks like he answers (at least some of) the questions he gets

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 9:06 pm
by EquALLity
brimstoneSalad wrote:See the "HD and MP3"?
Ah, alright.
brimstoneSalad wrote:But if you download, you can watch or listen at any speed you want.
I'll just do that then.

By the way, I watched The Unbelievers, and it was great.

So, can anybody else watch the videos?

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 2:31 am
by brimstoneSalad
Or this could be another option:
knot wrote:Just FYI, Penn seems to be quite active on Twitter and it looks like he answers (at least some of) the questions he gets
If we could ask him some questions directly, that could save a lot of time searching.


Maybe: "Do you accept the scientific consensus on anthropogenic climate change now, and its harmful effects?"

Re: Next Open Letter: Penn Jillette

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 5:40 am
by knot
I wrote to him and asked if he changed his mind on vegans since the Bullshit episode, but I didnt get a reply :(
He has 2 million followers though, so I cant really tell if being ignored or he just didnt see my message